It feels like there’s reason to inflate those numbers both for Israel and Palestine. Do we know they’re credible? Genuinely asking, I’m not sure from my cursory searx.
I don’t. I only feel terrible for the ones who were opposed to these attacks on other countries. Most of them (if the statistics I’ve seen are to be believed) support the actions, so they deserve the consequences. Maybe these people dying horrifically will finally make others consider the value of lives.
Idk man. If you’re a child, a unhoused, or a otherwise a person without the economic means to leave because your ancestors were settlers and you just so happened to be born in the colonized land, I’d consider you a civilian. I think your view is too black and white.
Screw you if you’re a deliberate Zionist benefiting from genocide though.
Israelis aren’t walled in and prevented from leaving like Palestinians are in Gaza.
Israelis have no practical excuse to continue their occupation, especially when everyone is forced to serve in the IDF to actively aid the occupation rather than just passively.
As long as they are not on active duty, they shouldn’t be targets. And if they are forced to serve, they should still only be killed if they are an active threat. Normally, they should first be offered to surrender.
Hope you’re acting ironic and do not actually call to genocide all Jews in Israel.
Hope you’re acting ironic by saying that you can commit a genocide, put your gun over the fireplace you murdered a family to steal, and suddenly not be a valid target.
It doesn’t matter if you put your gun down as a settler colonizer. You’re still actively engaging in the genocide. You are still a valid target.
And the objective of any just war is to expel you.
Normally, they should first be offered to surrender.
Get on a plane and go home. No one’s stopping you. That’s your opportunity.
Zionists are not Jewish people, they are actually against Judaism.
I believe it’s the Talmud that says Israel cannot exist until the messiah returns. This is why you have many religious Jews in the US against the state of Israel.
There are more Christian Zionists than there are Jews in total.
“Zionists are mostly Jews” is an objectively false statement.
Maybe specifically in Israel the statement could be seen as true, but that’s only because Israel is a jewish settler ethnostate, so most of almost any grouping would be a majority Jews.
I don’t want to talk ethics, but as a rule of thumb, winning a war is easier if you take out strategic targets than if you target civilians. Targeting civilians is what you do if your weapons aren’t precise enough to target tanks/planes etc.
The rest would do the same.
As they always have proven their entire miserable history.
Singling out Netanyahoo is Bernie the sheepdog’s tactics of dammage control
Every government before him was the same, they’re not ‘hypothetical’. Ridiculous argument.
What doesn’t exist is a reality where the next government isn’t brutally mistreating Palestine.
Your hasbara is weak
First let’s settle one thing, Israel has no right to exist. I’m against assuming 100% of the populace is all for the genocide. The majority government and their supporters clearly are.
The apartheid state of Israel needs to end. The genocide needs to be stopped by any means, except a genocide in return.
The entire majority government and their supporters can hang.
I’m not going to condem the rest for a “thought” crime they didn’t commit. Maybe they would have done the same thing, maybe not.
Plenty of jews outside the apartheid state are against it.
Those that live there, wether bcs of propaganda or a superiority complex don’t.
Maybe 5 to 10% maximum have normal views.
You know what they say about people trying the same thing and expecting different results.
Israel didn’t become an apartheid genocidal occupation of Palestinian land under Netanyahu. It’s has been since its founding.
You’re suggesting we close our eyes and pretend their entire history doesn’t matter, that we just blame the current figurehead and his (variable but typically increasingly few) direct supporters.
The majority of Israelis supports the genocide of the Palestinians according to surveys and more than half of jewish Israelis support attacking Iran even without US support.
The majority of the world is critical of ALL Americans now for Trump, he was elected twice, thant’s on them all. Israelis have expressed majority support for this ongoing genocide and attacks on Iran, this is on them all.
Bomb a soverign nation “pre emptively” get bombed back.
Fuck the entire Israeli government and anyone who supports it.
The reason the US supports Israel is exactly because Israel is a settler-colony. They’re part of the same genocidal settler project, Zionism is Manifest Destiny.
If landback wins in Israel the ones paying attention know that it’s coming for them too.
But they didn’t have to make a colony of European settlers to do that, did they? Egypt is a loyal collaborator with the US and it fulfills the same geostrategic goals, but the amount of support Egypt gets pales in comparison to Israel. Why is that?
We can’t dismiss the ideological importance of Israel. The unlimited support of the 51st state is exactly because it is a settler-colony.
I don’t see many ethnic Egyptians in places of power that can influence policy or get laws voted concerning their country.
Egypt hasn’t always been loyal, certainly not the population.
They overthrew the previous puppet despite US efforts to keep him in place.
When they saw it was hopeless they threw him under the bus and ‘supported’ the arab spring movement.
In reality they hijacked the revolution and simply put another puppet in place.
Settler-colonialism isn’t just about who is in power (although it is about that). That’s just regular colonialism, like French Algeria.
Settler-colonialism is about importing settlers to replace the indigenous population while enacting genocidal policies to exterminate or expell the indigenous population. Egypt isn’t experiencing that.
That’s why Egypt doesn’t get the level of support that Israel does.
This belief that Israel is a US controlled proxy has always vexed me.
So-- honest question here-- From inside the US it appears that our entire political apparatus is controlled by a relatively small sprinkling of zionists doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US-- going all the way back to the Nakba. But theres always people (like yourself) on Lemmy and Reddit claiming Israel is a US creature under US control for US gain.
As an American my free speech ends and I get prosecuted if I say anything anti semitic. I CAN say racist things about anyone else, all I want as long as I dont start a riot.
Can you tell me why you are so certain zionism is controlled by the US (your understanding), not the US by rich zionists (my understanding)?
edit: Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.
The US and Israel have a partnership.
While the zionist representation is very visible in US politics and creates the belief that they contol it it is not so.
Can you honestly believe that if you objectively compare the two?
A tiny country with a small population and a small army (despite again being disproportionally and relatively big) vs a huge country with the largest military in the world that was already a world power before the other even existed.
" doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US"
Can you give an example?
If you’re thinking now that the bad thing is israel may drag the US into war with Iran you’re mistaken.
That may happen but it’s bcs it is the US intention to have war on Iran.
They have provoked them many times all on their own without using the israel proxy.
Hijacking ships, small attacks and unilaterally breaking the nuclear deal, etc. to increase tension.
Anyway here’s a good article I recently read.
Whatever is happening now has long been predicted.
“Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.”
I sometimes sleep, and never run away from a discussion if it’s civil or useful.
Which is rare here since .world is infested with reactionary clowns throwing insults and platitutes when they lose an argument.
Not ‘every’ land but I get the point.
Still it doesn’t compare and there’s no excuse.
In this case the colonising is still going on, hence the genocide.
They are not ‘citizens’ but colonisers.
They deserve all they get, what they don’t deserve is sympathy.
I would disagree. If you go back far enough, every land has been stolen. There is probably no piece of land that hasn’t been held by multiple different groups over time.
I’d also argue a government existing at all is stolen land. What gives them the right to the land, instead of the people using it as they want? At some point someone decided the land was theirs, and not someone else’s, and decided they could sell, lend, or use the land as they want, even if someone else also wanted to use it.
Before colonialism, empires would conquer lands and then just make the people who already live there into their subjects.
And before empires and agriculture and such, people weren’t really organized enough to steal land (and weren’t embedded deeply enough in the land for it to be stolen). They’d just move to the new land and become part of the people already there.
And before empires and agriculture and such, people weren’t really organized enough to steal land (and weren’t embedded deeply enough in the land for it to be stolen). They’d just move to the new land and become part of the people already there.
Yeah, that’s my point. At one point in time land wasn’t something owned, just something utilized. The fact that governments exert control over them implies they were stolen, as it prevents some people from utilizing it. See: Proudhon - What is Property?
Okay, you need to recognize that there are greater and lesser contradictions. Yes, all property is theft, but is that a useful line for Palestinians to struggle against? Can they even meaningfully abolish property without solving the colonial question?
That’s why we say the colonial question is the primary contradiction. Israelis are colonial invaders that have come to steal the land and expel or kill the indigenous population. This is a greater concern than, say, Palestinian business owners owning property (and thus stealing the land from the Commons). If we don’t focus our struggles and identify the primary contradiction, we just lash out at every injustice all at once and accomplish nothing because we are overwhelmed.
Every successful decolonial struggle for national independence involves cooperation between the landless and the landed, because colonialism takes primacy. We can deal with the question of “who gets to own the land” once the invaders are gone.
Yes, all property is theft, but is that a useful line for Palestinians to struggle against? Can they even meaningfully abolish property without solving the colonial question?
I never said that, though “the colonial question” is solved if you abolish property, so it’s still worth considering, even in this context.
Israelis are colonial invaders that have come to steal the land and expel or kill the indigenous population. This is a greater concern than, say, Palestinian business owners owning property (and thus stealing the land from the Commons).
Yes, and the whole system is built on ownership of property. Addressing the surface level issue (colonizer stealing land) is great, but you should also consider the root cause. If they can’t own land then there’s no colonization. It’s worth looking at both of these and fighting both. If there is to be a system enacted (which currently is no where close to happening, but still needs to be a consideration), it should be one that protects people and prevents exploitation, so this doesn’t happen again.
We can deal with the question of “who gets to own the land” once the invaders are gone.
It’s too late to do it then. That’s how you have a revolution collapse into something horrible; it didn’t have a plan for what comes after. The people struggling to just survive don’t need to consider this, but it does need to be considered. If you wait until after it’s done then you just end up with squabbling, and the group who can exert control takes it without consent.
In this case the colonising is still going on, hence the genocide.
They are not ‘citizens’ but colonisers.
It’s not an unfortunate fait accompli like the US that eradicated the original inhabitants for instance.
I feel terrible for every citizen killed or made homeless/jobless because of this.
Just a reminder: 82% of all the Israeli Jews support ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
Just saying.
It feels like there’s reason to inflate those numbers both for Israel and Palestine. Do we know they’re credible? Genuinely asking, I’m not sure from my cursory searx.
I don’t. I only feel terrible for the ones who were opposed to these attacks on other countries. Most of them (if the statistics I’ve seen are to be believed) support the actions, so they deserve the consequences. Maybe these people dying horrifically will finally make others consider the value of lives.
every citizen in Palestine and Iran too right?
RIGHT?
Fun fact: every citizen of the entity is considered a reservist so there ARE no civilians! If you’re a settler you’re a valid target no matter what!
Idk man. If you’re a child, a unhoused, or a otherwise a person without the economic means to leave because your ancestors were settlers and you just so happened to be born in the colonized land, I’d consider you a civilian. I think your view is too black and white.
Screw you if you’re a deliberate Zionist benefiting from genocide though.
Israelis aren’t walled in and prevented from leaving like Palestinians are in Gaza.
Israelis have no practical excuse to continue their occupation, especially when everyone is forced to serve in the IDF to actively aid the occupation rather than just passively.
As long as they are not on active duty, they shouldn’t be targets. And if they are forced to serve, they should still only be killed if they are an active threat. Normally, they should first be offered to surrender.
Hope you’re acting ironic and do not actually call to genocide all Jews in Israel.
Hope you’re acting ironic by saying that you can commit a genocide, put your gun over the fireplace you murdered a family to steal, and suddenly not be a valid target.
It doesn’t matter if you put your gun down as a settler colonizer. You’re still actively engaging in the genocide. You are still a valid target.
And the objective of any just war is to expel you.
Get on a plane and go home. No one’s stopping you. That’s your opportunity.
No, but all Israelis that are zionists maybe.
Zionists are not Jewish people, they are actually against Judaism.
I believe it’s the Talmud that says Israel cannot exist until the messiah returns. This is why you have many religious Jews in the US against the state of Israel.
Zionists are the one and only antisemites.
Zionists are mostly Jews, but Jews are mostly not Zionists.
But yes, according to Talmud, Israel shouldn’t exist.
There are more Christian Zionists than there are Jews in total.
“Zionists are mostly Jews” is an objectively false statement.
Maybe specifically in Israel the statement could be seen as true, but that’s only because Israel is a jewish settler ethnostate, so most of almost any grouping would be a majority Jews.
Zionist are not jews. They might say they are but the are against Judaism just like southern Christians are not Christians.
I don’t want to talk ethics, but as a rule of thumb, winning a war is easier if you take out strategic targets than if you target civilians. Targeting civilians is what you do if your weapons aren’t precise enough to target tanks/planes etc.
Hopefully they take the opportunity for a fresh start and move out of the settler occupation of Palestine.
If they voted for Netanyahu they asked for it, and I have no sympathy.
The rest would do the same.
As they always have proven their entire miserable history.
Singling out Netanyahoo is Bernie the sheepdog’s tactics of dammage control
Blaming the government in power and those who put them in power for the actions taken by the government is totally reasonable.
You’re suggesting well “what about a hypothetical government that doesn’t exist huh?”. That doesn’t matter. They don’t exist. Blame the government
Every government before him was the same, they’re not ‘hypothetical’. Ridiculous argument.
What doesn’t exist is a reality where the next government isn’t brutally mistreating Palestine.
Your hasbara is weak
First let’s settle one thing, Israel has no right to exist. I’m against assuming 100% of the populace is all for the genocide. The majority government and their supporters clearly are.
The apartheid state of Israel needs to end. The genocide needs to be stopped by any means, except a genocide in return.
The entire majority government and their supporters can hang.
I’m not going to condem the rest for a “thought” crime they didn’t commit. Maybe they would have done the same thing, maybe not.
I hope you are being naive.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/9/poll-53-israelis-support-extrajudicial-killings.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-half-of-jewish-israelis-say-israel-should-run-gaza-after-the-war-0-say-hamas/
Plenty of jews outside the apartheid state are against it.
Those that live there, wether bcs of propaganda or a superiority complex don’t.
Maybe 5 to 10% maximum have normal views.
You know what they say about people trying the same thing and expecting different results.
Israel didn’t become an apartheid genocidal occupation of Palestinian land under Netanyahu. It’s has been since its founding.
You’re suggesting we close our eyes and pretend their entire history doesn’t matter, that we just blame the current figurehead and his (variable but typically increasingly few) direct supporters.
Well I’m glad all of your elected officials represent your views and morals.
The majority of Israelis supports the genocide of the Palestinians according to surveys and more than half of jewish Israelis support attacking Iran even without US support.
deleted by creator
The majority of the world is critical of ALL Americans now for Trump, he was elected twice, thant’s on them all. Israelis have expressed majority support for this ongoing genocide and attacks on Iran, this is on them all. Bomb a soverign nation “pre emptively” get bombed back.
Fuck the entire Israeli government and anyone who supports it.
deleted by creator
What a moronic comparison. Fuck the zionist bastard Israelis and fuck the Iranian regime. But Fuck the Israeli zionists more.
deleted by creator
I mean if a candidate is the “Hello, I am literally hitler” candidate and you vote for them, maybe you’re fucked in the head?
What kind of citizen? Palestinian? Iranian?
All
Shouldn’t be a citizen on stolen land.
USAmericans sweating rn 😬
Manifest destiny said the US land is all ours. Also Hawaii. Divine right mandated by God, so…
/s
Us next!
Don’t think they care much. Or about anything except themselves for that matter.
The most navel staring country on the planet
The reason the US supports Israel is exactly because Israel is a settler-colony. They’re part of the same genocidal settler project, Zionism is Manifest Destiny.
If landback wins in Israel the ones paying attention know that it’s coming for them too.
It’s also a geographically beneficial located proxy.
But they didn’t have to make a colony of European settlers to do that, did they? Egypt is a loyal collaborator with the US and it fulfills the same geostrategic goals, but the amount of support Egypt gets pales in comparison to Israel. Why is that?
We can’t dismiss the ideological importance of Israel. The unlimited support of the 51st state is exactly because it is a settler-colony.
I don’t see many ethnic Egyptians in places of power that can influence policy or get laws voted concerning their country.
Egypt hasn’t always been loyal, certainly not the population.
They overthrew the previous puppet despite US efforts to keep him in place.
When they saw it was hopeless they threw him under the bus and ‘supported’ the arab spring movement.
In reality they hijacked the revolution and simply put another puppet in place.
Settler-colonialism isn’t just about who is in power (although it is about that). That’s just regular colonialism, like French Algeria.
Settler-colonialism is about importing settlers to replace the indigenous population while enacting genocidal policies to exterminate or expell the indigenous population. Egypt isn’t experiencing that.
That’s why Egypt doesn’t get the level of support that Israel does.
This belief that Israel is a US controlled proxy has always vexed me.
So-- honest question here-- From inside the US it appears that our entire political apparatus is controlled by a relatively small sprinkling of zionists doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US-- going all the way back to the Nakba. But theres always people (like yourself) on Lemmy and Reddit claiming Israel is a US creature under US control for US gain.
As an American my free speech ends and I get prosecuted if I say anything anti semitic. I CAN say racist things about anyone else, all I want as long as I dont start a riot.
Can you tell me why you are so certain zionism is controlled by the US (your understanding), not the US by rich zionists (my understanding)?
edit: Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.
The US and Israel have a partnership.
While the zionist representation is very visible in US politics and creates the belief that they contol it it is not so.
Can you honestly believe that if you objectively compare the two?
A tiny country with a small population and a small army (despite again being disproportionally and relatively big) vs a huge country with the largest military in the world that was already a world power before the other even existed.
" doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US"
Can you give an example?
If you’re thinking now that the bad thing is israel may drag the US into war with Iran you’re mistaken.
That may happen but it’s bcs it is the US intention to have war on Iran.
They have provoked them many times all on their own without using the israel proxy.
Hijacking ships, small attacks and unilaterally breaking the nuclear deal, etc. to increase tension.
Anyway here’s a good article I recently read.
Whatever is happening now has long been predicted.
“Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.”
I sometimes sleep, and never run away from a discussion if it’s civil or useful.
Which is rare here since .world is infested with reactionary clowns throwing insults and platitutes when they lose an argument.
Let me know what you think.
Every land is stolen. The problem is that they’re in the middle of committing genocide.
Not ‘every’ land but I get the point.
Still it doesn’t compare and there’s no excuse.
In this case the colonising is still going on, hence the genocide.
They are not ‘citizens’ but colonisers.
They deserve all they get, what they don’t deserve is sympathy.
I would disagree. If you go back far enough, every land has been stolen. There is probably no piece of land that hasn’t been held by multiple different groups over time.
I’d also argue a government existing at all is stolen land. What gives them the right to the land, instead of the people using it as they want? At some point someone decided the land was theirs, and not someone else’s, and decided they could sell, lend, or use the land as they want, even if someone else also wanted to use it.
Before colonialism, empires would conquer lands and then just make the people who already live there into their subjects.
And before empires and agriculture and such, people weren’t really organized enough to steal land (and weren’t embedded deeply enough in the land for it to be stolen). They’d just move to the new land and become part of the people already there.
Yeah, that’s my point. At one point in time land wasn’t something owned, just something utilized. The fact that governments exert control over them implies they were stolen, as it prevents some people from utilizing it. See: Proudhon - What is Property?
Okay, you need to recognize that there are greater and lesser contradictions. Yes, all property is theft, but is that a useful line for Palestinians to struggle against? Can they even meaningfully abolish property without solving the colonial question?
That’s why we say the colonial question is the primary contradiction. Israelis are colonial invaders that have come to steal the land and expel or kill the indigenous population. This is a greater concern than, say, Palestinian business owners owning property (and thus stealing the land from the Commons). If we don’t focus our struggles and identify the primary contradiction, we just lash out at every injustice all at once and accomplish nothing because we are overwhelmed.
Every successful decolonial struggle for national independence involves cooperation between the landless and the landed, because colonialism takes primacy. We can deal with the question of “who gets to own the land” once the invaders are gone.
I never said that, though “the colonial question” is solved if you abolish property, so it’s still worth considering, even in this context.
Yes, and the whole system is built on ownership of property. Addressing the surface level issue (colonizer stealing land) is great, but you should also consider the root cause. If they can’t own land then there’s no colonization. It’s worth looking at both of these and fighting both. If there is to be a system enacted (which currently is no where close to happening, but still needs to be a consideration), it should be one that protects people and prevents exploitation, so this doesn’t happen again.
It’s too late to do it then. That’s how you have a revolution collapse into something horrible; it didn’t have a plan for what comes after. The people struggling to just survive don’t need to consider this, but it does need to be considered. If you wait until after it’s done then you just end up with squabbling, and the group who can exert control takes it without consent.
Someone made the same point so answered this already to show it is an invalid argument in the case of Palestine.
Link?
In this case the colonising is still going on, hence the genocide. They are not ‘citizens’ but colonisers.
It’s not an unfortunate fait accompli like the US that eradicated the original inhabitants for instance.