- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
Like y’all keep posting about it, praising it, giving it free advertisement, and what not.
But the dev is a fascist, the discord server is a fascist bar, and the project thus is fascist.
I’ve met people who were harassed, I browsed through now deleted messages of Vaxry using slurrs and more.
So I wonder is if the people who post constantly about it know and are complicit, or just don’t know and would act otherwise?
It gets tiring to see the project be given “fame” when I know the roots of the plants are founded in toxicity & abuse.
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Vaxry’s a shitbird and I’m glad people aren’t quiet about it. “It’s just software, why does everyone make it political”, mfer software is inherently political. FOSS even more so. You can use whatever you want, but that doesn’t shield you from contributing to a fash asshole’s power within the community. If you’re comfy with that, I’m just as comfy calling you out for letting the Nazi into the bar
This is akin to MAGA calling the pope marxist cuz he disagrees with them, some people are so one-dimensional its comical, you cant fight stupidity with stupidity, this is how actual fascists justify all of their extremist views, extremism just encourages extremism on the other side and gives those who are indoctrinated a bigger reason to support their indoctrinators. Tunnel vision is one crazy phenomenon 🤡
Regardless of his views I’ll continue using it and supporting it. People will find anything good and look for a reason to ruin it grow tf up.
American politics genuinely makes me lose braincells, backwards fucking country, MAGA or otherwise
Removed by mod
is this the part where i get to smugly use i3? :P
Use Vivarium instead, it works and it is very featured !
Last commit 2 years ago. :(
bruh
The main reason why I use open source is precisely because I don’t need or want to worry about this crap. The software is as much property of humanity as it is of the creator, it is basically just knowledge
Absolutely this. Too many people think that because you use some open source software from some fascist dev that “obviously you’re fascist, too”.
Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
Hating on Hyprland users that know what’s going on but still really like the software fits this definition. Plus, isn’t the biggest kick in the face having the exact people you hate use and enjoy your software?
This is exactly why I switched from PolyMC to Prism Launcher. The PolyMC dev was a fascist prick and an anti-gay/trans activist. His fear was that PolyMC was “going to get taken over by the gays due to the name having Poly in it (as in polysexual)”, so he started banning all the devs who disagreed with him or even made a joke about it.
Those devs forked the project and, to rub salt in the wound, made the icon rainbow. But guess what? Its the same software. They forked it because they still liked it and wanted to use it. The software itself had absolutely nothing to do with the dev.
I got the impression that the PolyMC situation was quite different, with that developer masking it and doing a minority of the work, but after one change made by the rest of the developers they snapped, used their control over the repository to remove the rest of the maintainers and take sole control over the repository.
I was aware of some shenanigans and hostility from PolyMC and never used it, but I got the impression there were no major outward signs before that happened?
There really wasn’t a lot of ramp up to it but there were Discord screenshots of his toxic personality being put down in r/feedthebeast at the time and (iirc) one of the devs that actually did do work on the project quoted the whole “poly” thing. Dunno if there was a screen of it, though.
But even before that, there was apparently some horrible stuff that MultiMC did that resulted in PolyMC and other forks in the first place. That whole application has a shady past, tbh.
I’m just trying to say, use Hyprland if you like Hyprland. There WILL be a fork of it someday. That is always guaranteed to happen when a dev becomes a piece of shit. Its all about when it is going to happen, but by all means move over to the fork when it does.
As long as its open source and money does not change hands, you are in no way directly supporting a fascist dev. Once that software is on your PC that software is yours to do what you want with it, not the dev’s. By all means, design your Hyprland as pro-trans with trans flag colors. I endorse that wholeheartedly, in fact. 🏳️⚧️
I just don’t like when people get auto-labeled for something they use or do. Its basic stereotyping and it drives me nuts. A lot of people just don’t want to give the benefit of the doubt to others before even getting to know them. Getting branded because of a piece of software you enjoy is just… its up there, at any rate. I really can’t put words to how frustrated it makes me. I don’t even use Hyprland (I did try it, though). I run KDE because I’m a dirty mouse user. I’m much too smoothbrain for a tiling WM.
This! If it is Free Software, it respects everyone’s freedom. If I don’t like the developer, I will not buy them a coffee. If I don’t like the software practices of the developer, a fork is in order (e.g. Oracle with OpenOffice --> LibreOffice)
Honestly I just stopped caring about developer’s personalities or political views. If you only use products made by nice guys who share your political views you won’t use anything in your life. Not even a phone.
your argument is a bit extreme, it doesn’t need to only be software from nice folks, it just needs to not be software made by not nice folks
apart from sqlite, i think everything is replaceable with a bit of compromise
what things made by not nice folks are you locked into?
I agree with the sentiment of supporting nice folks, especially in the FOSS ecosystem.
What OS are you going to use on your Smartphone if you remove software from Google and Apple? What VR headset are you going to use? What telecom are you going to use? Are you only going to shop in local food markets? Lemmy’s creators are also biggots, yet here we are…
I financially support projects and people I like, but I use whatever software I enjoy using. FOSS, closed source, made by a nice guy, bad guy. If I feel my experience is good I’ll use that, if something better appears along the way I’ll move on. I don’t want to be a cop and background check the political views of whoever created all the software, hardware, services, movies, books, etc I use. I’d do nothing else with my life.
What OS are you going to use on your Smartphone if you remove software from Google and Apple?
People in the FOSS community constantly talk about the best ways to minimise use of Google, Apple and Microsoft products. That is an absolutely valid motivation for choosing to use one project over another.
If someone is willing to use the behaviour of a company or its owners as a factor when choosing a software stack, presumably it’s valid to apply the same sentiment to development teams of smaller projects too.
I’ve gone though the Degoogle journey myself but there’s just no way to run a phone without software made by jerks. And that’s one example.
You can use whatever criteria you want yo pick software, that’s fair. I don’t tend to include politics and personality into the equation myself but I’m not imposing anyone to do the same.
All the VR users that care about this sort of thing better be aware of Oculus’ founder Palmer Luckey too. Their friends will be so sad when they stop showing up in VR chat
Luckey hasn’t had anything to do with Oculus in years.
Uhh if they cared about that they wouldn’t be using a meta owned headset in the first place. Palmer luckey sold oculus to facebook a decade ago
I’m just on the topic of people using tech from a morally compromised creator without being aware. Also idk about how transfering ownership absolves the sin. Even if it wasn’t meta that bought it but instead some ethical company it’s still riding on the shoulders of a giant (piece of shit).
Don’t really get the down votes, maybe VR is a sore spot?
Well, I also have some bad news for the users of Apple, Amazon, Alphabet, Meta, Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Verizon, AT&T, Comcast, Target, FedEx, Dell, Lowe’s, General Electric, Proctor & Gamble, IBM, Nvidia, AMD, Cisco, Publix, Intel, HP, United Airlines, Nike, Oracle, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Dow Chemical Company, Best Buy, Cargill, Koch Industries, H-E-B, Love’s, JPMorgan Chase, Johnson & Johnson,
…I could go on.
Don’t you dare speak ill of HEB.
I think it’s really funny how in proprietary software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically harmed a business. But in free and open source software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically benefited the random individual that made the project.
It’s because proprietary software actually has value
(jk, I’m one of us)
If you like hyprland, use it. Just dont prompte it. Dont talk about it. Dont even mention it
Why? We like something. We share it. You may ignore it.
Attention, fame, encouragement, and engagement are also currency, and aiding fascists is fascism. We all deserve to live in a world where fascists don’t feel safe openly declaring themselves.
Because promoting hyprland is morally wrong? Its pretty simple
It is not tho
How much wrong does a person have to do for you to consider it morally wrong to promote the things they make?
It’s morally wrong to promote bad things, and morally good to promote good things.
Just because I admire the theories Isaac Newton came up with and I encourage others to learn about them does not mean I support everything Isaac Newton did, said or thought.
All of our society is built on the shoulders of giants who did a lot of “good” despite being, in most cases, “bad people”.
Thats a tangibly different example though right? Isaac Newton isn’t alive to benefit from your support so the moral downside is basically gone. If a modern genius was out here breaking new ground left and right in science but he was also a raging Nazi I certainly wouldn’t be promoting him and I’d be very wary of using any of his breakthroughs
However, let’s centre the conversation back on what it is: a flashy tiling window manager made by a bit of a knob
Why is it wrong to promote the things a shitty person makes?
It’s FOSS, so using it doesn’t give them money. On the other hand, a user might voluntarily donate if they’re unaware.
One might claim they’re being given a platform in the community by people promoting their product, but on the other hand I hear more loudly that they’re toxic, fascist and banned from various places.
Anything else to add?
I don’t have a lot that I would add, but I would just assert that the “user might donate if they’re unaware” is a big enough reason on its own. Even if you promote it alongside a caveat mentioning the moral shortcomings, the people who start using it because of your promotion might also promote it, but there’s no guarantee they’ll keep the caveat (in fact I’d consider it likely that people who will use the product despite the caveat are exceptionally likely to neglect to mention anything in their promotion).
And to your second point I’d say that its pretty indisputable that they are being given a platform, as evidenced by the platform they have. It is a platform that is, as you mention, not subscribed to by a lot of people with a moral backbone, but it is significant.
If I had to give a one-liner for why it is bad to promote the things a shitty person makes, I’d say “its a bit of a Nazi bar thing”.
My morals come from my religion and not from some arbitrary standards set by a Western supremacist, who thinks their culture is superior to everyone else and the rest of the world is “primitive”. Promoting a tool by itself is not morally wrong. It seems like some people have a very low opinion about other people. They think that others will not be able to differentiate between a tool and the morals of its makers. I am sorry that I have a much higher opinion about adults.
Who is the Western supremacist in this scenario and what relationship do they have to morality? Kinda makes or breaks your whole argument
Im looking forward to the full release of cosmic as I dont want to keep using hyprland. Sadly theming is incomplete and it’ll be a while before good themes get released.
I don’t really care, the Lemmy devs also got some funky political opinions but I’m still here
at the end of the day software is software and this stuff is all free and open source anyway
Fr, you can disagree with someone and still make use of the software they create. Especially because you’re not even directly supporting them monetarily.
lemmy is not a great comparison, there’s like 3 alternatives, there are tens if not more hyprland alternatives.
i don’t think software is just software, why would this tech be exempt? pilot-less aircrafts is just tech, just like software, but we do remember that drones bomb people. supporting problematic developers is not “as bad” as building killing machines, but it’s the same principle: looking the other way when it’s convenient. we should aim to ostracize and isolate problematic devs, and it starts by not using their software, because doing so gives them clout and relevance
What other well supported wayland tiled window managers are out there with smooth animations? I would check them out for sure, but I only know about hyprland.
i’m not on wayland so i can’t try any of these, but there are lists you can browse from (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Wayland#Compositors for example)
you are setting quite restrictive and arbitrary limits
well supported
what do you mean?
with smooth animations
what counts as “smooth animations”?
if your message boils down to “something which looks really good to me and that has a discord i can go into and ask for help”, you may have set the requirements tight enough to only include hyprland, but that’s not a valid excuse in my opinion to avoid boycotting problematic developers
I agree they’re restrictive and arbitrary reasons and they’re also the reasons every single hyprland user has for chosing it. You have a different set of arbitrary reasons for setting your system up the way you like. It’s called a “preference”.
In order to fulfill this preference, is it ok for me to fork hyprland and call it something else? Or do I need to rewrite hyprland’s functionality from scratch and pretend it was all my idea? Can I reference hyprland during the rewrite or does it need to be clean room? Should i make a fork available for people who disapprove of the hyprland devs? But what if I’m not a good enough person? Oof, just noticing, i forgot to check the ideologies of each maintainer of the thousands of packages in my system.
I think it’s possible that the boycott idea makes more sense in a capitalist setting than a communist one. The reason we stop supporting JK Rowling or Chick-Fil-A is because being a customer directly translates to their success and thus the success of their ideology. But no one is making a profit from developing and maintaining a Linux package. In fact, typically the more people use your package, the more thankless work falls on you.
I’m simply interested in having control over my PC, and the FOSS community exists to exchange learnings and code to enable each other to do that. And like all of science throughout history, there are problematic people who contribute useful ideas, and I think we would be cutting off our own noses to reject those ideas just because they come from people we otherwise disagree with.
I’ve heard of SwayFX, but it’s pretty niche and I doubt it comes close to the featureset of Hyprland
Great, yeah, both sides are the same huh? Grow a spine.
Nobody said both sides are the same. Grow a spine
The software itself does not harm anyone, considering it is free software and nobody has to contribute money to use it, i don’t care. If you feel so outraged by it, fork the software and develop your own version. At least with free software you have that option, as opposed to proprietary software where you have no option.
I’m not using Hyperland personally, but i’m not opposed to people using it.
I’d rather not get banned from this community by arguing that.
At any rate that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the political views don’t matter, the software does and its great
Luckily there’s programming.dev which I hope will be the go to lemmy for programming
Too bad it’s American.
Oh :/
After reading a lot of the material I am not convinced the hyprland dev can reasonably be called a “fascist”.
It’s an interesting story, though.
WDYM? because being a bigot is not the sams as being a fascist?
yeah actually communist bigots exist, as do Anarcho bigots
yes. and catholic conservatives and neoliberals and social democrats whatnot
thanks for the downvotes. i would still like an answer to my questions
Repeat after me:
“You do not support a project or its dev in any way by just using the software you got for free.”
In fact, unless you donate, advertize or contribute to the project, you’re a net drain on its resources.
Great, so you agree with OP, who was criticizing people who are:
posting about it, praising it, giving it free advertisement, and what not
I don’t disagree exactly, but I’d argue that you’re contributing to the project even if you’re just reporting bugs or helping others with it on e.g. Lemmy.
I could see avoiding all of that pragmatically in order to use some obscure, critical software, but not something you use every day and for which there are reasonable alternatives.
Vaxry is not a very smart guy. He originally got a wrist slap by FDO saying don’t do your toxic shit here. Then he followed it up by going postal on the FDO mailing list. Then he put up a blog post where he was like like “SJWs are coming for me”.
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists
The entire argument is that you can’t make an exclusionary space for people (no definition of what that means) but you should be able to call them slurs. Who would want anything to do with him? He should have gone full tilt and made a list of slurs you should be allowed to say beyond just arguing for the R-slur. That would have really convinced people he’s not an extremely toxic right wing weirdo.
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
This was his non-apology where he says “lets be real” a lot which is a common way of just ignoring a criticism and then he follows it up with, I should have banned that user instead of doing what I did.
Asking for professionalism in the OSS community is not a huge deal. It’s also quite literally not even about the code AFAIR Drew Devault is still taking Vaxry’s patches. He just doesn’t want him in the community starting shit with people.
The “paradox of tolerance” is a concept I love to bring up time and time again.
No tolerance for the intolerant, lest intolerants take over tolerant spaces and turn them intolerant.
Social contract not a moral imperative.
Or seen as a repeated prisoners dilemma, play tit-for-tat, or maybe (N*tit)-for-tat (where N gives a ‘punitive’ damages expectation for breching the accepted norms).
Quite a lot of lefties don’t like thinking about what is “rational” though because “people aren’t cognitively rational” so rationality based social equilibia can obviously never have any relevance.
Can you elaborate on the last part of your comment? I’m not sure I fully understand, though it sounds like we mostly agree.
I’m not sure why you threw in that digression about political leaning at the end, though. It makes your last statement pretty vague.
I don’t see it as a paradox, but as rational. But there are people who I think do hold tolerance as some sort of moral compulsion, and get offended by the notion that it might just emerge from people figuring out how and why to cooperate, without any high and mighty guiding morality.
These people will also object to using rational models to understand/describe human behaviours, because they can point to many examples of people acting irrationally. Many of these examples are psychology lab “experiments” so are irrelevant to the real world. But plenty of real examples of things like loss aversion and risk (mis)percepion, sunk costs, time-inconsistent decisions and so on where individuals clearly do behave “irrationally”.
I often come across people who believe that this undermines anything any “rational model” has to say. And so I do try to use such reasoning with those people, or even challenge those observations with examples where collective rationality does seem to emerge as a social (not individual) phenomenon, then I’ll be derided as some sort of neo-conservative capitalist fascist or whatever.
So I find that it’s generally good practice to chuck in some insult about one type of political zealot or other every so often, so as to quickly establish where I stand. I’d rather be vague than waste my breath with zealots.
Discord fails to include a libre software license text file. We do not control it, anti-libre software.
