The way these studies are phrased feels gross and seem to only serve to perpetuate these problems by shifting the blame of systemic issues on the individuals suffering from them instead of the powerful people benefiting from wealth inequality that cause this kind of desperation.
The US is guilty of this too with our “Financial Literacy” propaganda.
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Unfortunately people needs to eat, to pay rent, etc.
When your only choice is to work for a shady company, you can’t be chooser.
You guys spend money on games?
I knew this was a fucked up industry when I heard they were successfully diversifying into women-centric gatcha games where the game is also centered on gooning over various character designs but the gatcha pulls correspond to specific romance scenes and interactions.
Japanese companies really have minmaxed exploiting every demographic. They have this garbage for the young people and pachinko parlors for old people and rural folks.
The widespread deregulation of gambling in the US is heading that way too.
Funny thing is I know more women playing these games than I know dudes. Which of course does not reflect player statistics. I know that. But it‘s probably more popular with women than you would think based on character designs. I think it has a lot to do with cutesy Japanese pop culture that‘s appealing to a lot of people. There‘s a reason many Chinese and Korean games are copying it recently.
I had an argument with a guy who was in a shared friend’s discord server about this. He was adamant that, if somebody spent too much money on a game, then it was all their fault. Despite me going over several (clearly manipulative) tactics, all he said was that people who fell for these must be stupid and that they deserved it
Yeah later on he was kicked because of other (Similarly dickish) reasons
It is as much their fault as it is any addict’s fault, which is to say, partially but not entirely
I mean…
The unfortunate reality is that both parties, the customer and the game company, are culpable and both share blame
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I mean, he’s not wrong. it is something within their power to control, and only they can stop the cycle.
addiction is a hell of a drug though.
companies that prey on the vulnerabilities of humans like that should be regulated no different than drug, alcohol, or firearm companies.
And if we were all smart people we would have far less laws. Sometimes laws protect us from ourselves. Anyone who has experience with addiction knows how hard it is to just stop. Instead of blaming people for their inability to stop we should emphatize and understand that this needs an intervention. If these predatory practices were illegal those people wouldn’t need to stop themselves because they wouldn’t be put in that situation in the first place.
Regulation of predatory practice. Taxation on the games to pay for rehab and support services for people that experience negative effects from it. It’s really easy to do, but every single gambling operation gets the big bucks from the heavily addicted. The whales are the entire business.
I agree they’re partially at fault, but to deny the part the company played by creating artificial FOMO, sales, and gates is barbaric to say the least
It needs more regulation, I agree. Particularly for premium currencies (which thankfully the EU seems to be doing something about)
I saw so many people in another instance relating this to shaming people for avocado toast rather than these games exploiting gambling addiction.
It’s definitely a psychological issue where these games are designed to slowly bleed their players without them noticing. The most I’ve ever spent on a gacha was $40 over 6 years and I regret that so much. It takes a wakeup call and education to stop people from being suckered in.
I felt I was taking crazypills. In what world does this headline and article not scream "These games are ruining lives because of extremely manipulative marketing tactics.
I assume the people who took this article as a personal attack are part of the 19%, but doesn’t want to realise they have a very serious problem.
I think there’s probably a hasty assumption that either this article is (it’s not) or that it could be used for (it probably will) judgment type musings about how young people are irresponsible and are the cause of their own struggles, similar to the avocado toast commentary.
The article itself is just the result of a survey that happened to focus on young people, and I agree it’s more appropriate to think of it related to a relatively new form of gambling/manipulation that’s causing problems
Headline doesn’t match what’s in the report. It’s not just gacha; the question in the survey is inclusive of other games that offer in-game purchases (課金 in Japanese). So we’re talking about skins and boosts in MMOs, MOBAs, and shooters, hints in games like Candy Crush, etc.
The report posted here last week showed just how much MTX spending there is on PC, of which gacha is still a small part. I suspect there is a higher rate of gacha spending in Japan than there is globally (outside of China, perhaps), but I’d be surprised if gacha even made up half of the spending SMBC is reporting on here.
but I’d be surprised if gacha even made up half of the spending SMBC is reporting on here.
I wouldn‘t. Gacha is vastly more popular in Japan than PC gaming and it‘s not even close. It would seriously surprise me if mobile Gacha didn‘t make up the majority of spending in microtransactions.
I’ve always wondered - what is the difference between a gacha game and ANY game with microtransactions? What is it that puts gacha games in a class by themselves?
Generally but not always.
Microtransactions = I want the blue shirt, I can buy the blue shirt. The blue shirt can be cosmetic or have power boost.
Loot boxes = I want the blue shirt, I can buy a lottery ticket to maybe get the blue shirt. The blue shirt is just cosmetic. Maybe there is a way to get the blue shirt if I don’t get one in X boxes.
Gacha = I want the blue shirt, I can buy a lottery ticket to maybe get the blue shirt. The blue shirt has power boosts. Quite often, if I don’t get the blue shirt in a X tickets, I get a guaranteed blue shirt. Also a bit more often the blue shirt needs to be leveled up, using more blue shirts and/or other stuff you get from the lottery.
This is generally how it works, they are exceptions too it of course.
But that is why gacha is its own category, the lottery is required to progress the game and you need a lot of it. There is also usually multiple lotteries with different and the same prices at different % some you can play without spending money, some you need to spend money and some you can play onec in a while without spending money, but the good stuff and higher % are basically always looked in the two latter ones.
The way it is usually used and how upgrading stuff works, is very different between what country makes the game. I don’t remember exactly but the three big different ones are, Japan, China and South Korea.
The easiest different to simply explain is usually if you need more blue shirt to upgrade or if you just need more shirts or if you need shirt coins that drop from the game to level up, the shirt or if the shirt can’t be leveld up and you need a new shirt instead.
This sounds like every terrible mobile game I’ve ever played. Are gachas similar to tap tap games on mobile?
Gacha and lootboxes (similar in concept) tend to be the worst of predatory microtransactions because they exploit gambling addictions.
“Classic” microtansactions, like freaking Oblivion horse armor, skins, etc, are bad, but you buy them once and you know exactly what you’re getting.
With gacha and lootboxes you buy a lottery ticket hoping to get something good. They use rush-inducing casino-style tricks to get you hooked. They obfuscate your real odds and how much you’re spending as much as they can.
I believe the difference is that gacha introduces an element of chance, so you spend an in game currency to buy a spin of a wheel where you may get different rewards. Microtransactions could be something like “spend $5 and get this new skin”, it’s a guarantee. Gacha will be like “spend $1 for a 10% chance at this legendary skin, spend $5 for a 70% chance, etc etc”
So in a lot of ways, it’s just the Asian term for loot box games, something that western games shied away from a bit after the Battlefront 2 controversy and EU attention, which Disney got embroiled in.
Yes. It’s from the coin machine that sells a random toy in capsule. Gacha is the clicking sound that machine makes when you turn the button to get a capsule.
Hasn’t Team Fortress 2 done that forever?
Yes, iirc Valve popularized the concept in the west with TF2, Dota 2 and CS:GO.
Ah, I get it. Thanks!
gacha have element of chance, but usually speaking, gacha especially in asian games tend to also be tied to some form of power and is not purely cosmetic.
ao its not just purely, i want this character/costume/weapon because it looks cool, but theyres stats attached to it.
western game loot boxes generally sit more often as coametic, so the desire to pay isnt as bad (but can still be bad) but of course this doesnt apply to all western games either. an example of gacha based power is ultimate teams for sports games, which its gacha has players stats tied to them for team building.
gacha and loot boxes are fundamentally the same, but connotatively, gacha usually implies power and lootbox implies cosmetics, but technically not incorrect to use it either way.
if you want a dumb comparison, gacha is seen like trading card games, where power of the card also has value.
lootbox is sorta like sports cards where its collective in nature and really is about rarity/how the card looks
Gacha is addictive as hell if you grew up with Pokemon and Final Fantasy both huge in Japan. I play a few as well for boredom and yes the weird atmosphere of whales (account with thousands invested) being awkwardly silent but have a following of pretenders.
Let me guess
- Anime tiddies
- Short skirts
- Long socks
- Ultra brain-stimulating UI
- Ultra brain-stimulating sound effects
- 9001 virtual currencies to mask the actual cost of everything
- Mystery RNGs everywhere
- Muh behavioral psychology
- More manipulative shit
Parents need to do their fucking jobs.
These gaming companies (parasites) need to lose all their IP protections.
There‘s a bitter irony in demanding parents doing their jobs because that‘s exactly why they don‘t have time for parenting. The cost of living is too damn high.
This is exactly the reason why I won’t play gacha games. First everyone complains about loot boxes and microtransactions and then a game-genre where that’s the core of the game takes off.
Just goes to show that the people that (rightly) complain about microtransactions cheapening gaming experiences were always in the minority and most will just keep spending like headless chickens.
Most people I know aren’t or don’t see themselves as gambling addicts. They’re “proud” about how much they spent.
Personally I don’t play any game with microtransactions.
I’m only interested in games I can purchase outright and then own*. If there’s large scale DLC that’s fine, great even, but if there’s some in-game way to spend money that isn’t restricted to a DLC button/section, then I’m not interested.
I want to play games, not be inundated by constant sales opportunities.
*I’m aware I don’t “own” most game due to the stupidity of licensing, and while I don’t love that, I can acknowledge it’s still a different and better thing that games that constantly push microtransactions
There isn‘t much of a contradiction there, I think. People complaining about it are mostly from an entirely different culture than where Gacha slop is developed and most popular. The former being the western world and the latter being South East Asia and players who have a deep fascination for it.
I play a gacha game and have spent $0 on it. But I can imagine that sort of psychological insulation is not quite so common.
I feel like that’s a hard thing to do. Most of the gatcha games I’ve interacted with hide core game mechanics behind gatcha pay walls.
The real issue in gatcha is that many games require money to make actual progress.
When that’s characters, I just accept it. Like, “Oh, I guess I don’t get to try out this character? I’ll level up others instead and see how well I can do.”
I wouldn’t mind microtransactions, gacha games and gacha mechanics if there were sane upper limits to spend.
I was trying to learn how different gacha games work and monetization in f2p games in general, especially obes for smartphones.
I was surprised about how similar all the methods across games are. Some were a lot worse than others though.
I think the monetization method is sometimes viewed as acceptable by some, because the games often have a lot of content and can be a lot of fun to play. The thing I really dislike is that it’s unfairly monetized. Some people pay the majority of the income, they are also known as whales. There are of course some people that spend small sums, but the whales is where it is at.
After Arcade games went out of fashion we had a nice long period in which players paid about the same for a game, and got the same experience.
Now vulnerable people are paying more than they can afford to finance the game for everyone, and still everone gets a limited experience.
Some of the games I enjoyed the most had terrible gacha mechanics. One of them had items and mounts with 1/500 chance per pull. Of course it is designed so that it appears as 1/10, but it is really 1/500. To justify this they had the PITY system. Yes, thats the actual name of it. The pity system makes it so that after buying 500 pulls ypu are guaranteed the mount.
The price for 500 pulls? 500$
After the free pulls you could play to get, about 480$.
So I actually can’t get the entire game for even 500$…
That was just one of many such instances. I could probably spend more than 10 000$ and still not unlock absolutely everything.
Was it purely cosmetic? Nope. It gave an advantage too.
Legislation that effectively adds an upper limit to unlock the entire game with a sensible maximum monthly cost for new content, is needed in my opinion.
vulnerable people are paying more than they can afford to finance the game for everyone
Well said. I think a lot of things in the world work like this, unfortunately. Like, some people have to work long hours or hard jobs because they didn’t choose a career path that would allow them to work less and earn more. I mean, it sounds very different, but it’s also kinda similar in a way. There are people suffering for the benefit of other people. Saying they could choose another job is the same as saying vulnerable people could choose to not be vulnerable.
Legislation that effectively adds an upper limit to unlock the entire game with a sensible maximum monthly cost for new content, is needed in my opinion.
Agree, this is a great idea.
This doesn’t surprise me. If I hear stories of some of my teenager son’s classmates it sounds realistic. The other day one of his mates spent 20k in an arcade on claw machines in a single afternoon. He “won” like 4-5 massive plush dolls, and had to hide them at our place to avoid parental wrath. Can buy them for 2000jpy incl shipping on aliexpress.
Some of his friends spent their entire allowance and more on fortnite every month. Parental failure imo. Parents should teach their kids the value of things…
Played Puzzle and dragons for like 3 years when mobile games where booming and spend like total of 300€ to it.
Honestly it was pretty good and did not feel nearly as predatory as many other mobile gatcha games I’ve played after that.
But it did kinda red pill me on F2P games, gatcha, fomo, peer pressure and many other manipulative methods these games use. The fact that Gungho ended up closing the servers down in Europe making people lose their accounts also showcased pretty well how temporary these games are.
Now if I’ll ever again play games with gatcha I’ll do no gatcha “challenge” run. It’s pretty good for gauging whether the game is actually any good and how fast you’ll hit the paywall.
I played a gatcha game with a friend when we didn’t know what gacha was and we where trying to build our teams by just playing the game and there where always massive difficulty walls that couldn’t be passed. So we both ended up spending around $500 CAD on that game and farming with our phones open on the game 24/7. We stopped after we understood how predatory the model was.
Stopped playing Puzzle and dragons after clearing tower of gods for umpteenth time to “efficiently” consume my stamina so it would not get wasted.
Had this “wtf I am doing with my life moment” as I was no longer having fun and clearing the dungeon over and over was simply booring time waster.
Started ignoring daily login bonuses and only played when there was new content. Soon after that stopped playing all together.
Honestly it was pretty good
Yeah, I have never seen anyone talking about benefits of gacha model online. People only ever talk about it like it’s pure evil in its most refined form. Yet to hear anyone say how this model allows developers to fund basically F2P “Breath of the Wild” tier games with 100x more content.
I mean, it can be both at the same time. The games may be good as games (I play a few myself) but the mechanic can also be extremely predatory to those who have a problem with gambling and/or controlling their spending.
What I’m trying to figure out is exactly how pushy they are. Because I’m playing Genshin for a week already and there wasn’t a single moment I considered spending real money. Even a week worth of this kind of content (open world, quests, parkour, puzzles, minigames, bosses, mini bosses, multiple types of craft, randomized encounters, etc), is quite something and there’s still no sign of anything P2W on the horizon. Should I even expect some extra beefy bosses that are impossible to beat without buying crystals for tons of wishes? If not, then how is it morally different from any game that has any paid extra content at all? Like, you definitely can buy some optional cosmetics in almost any MMORPG game. People who can’t live without buying all the unnecessary cosmetics will proceed to spend a lot of money there as well.
Buying a blind box, loot crate, card pack, etc. with a random chance for items is something that we as people have a high chance of finding addictive, like some kind of misplaced survival instinct. Genshin monetizes their game that way, and you may be lucky like me and not have whatever gene causes us to become crippling gambling addicts, but Mihoyo became a multibillion dollar company off of exploiting those people the same way you might find someone at a corner store playing scratch-off lottery tickets all day, or someone seated at a slot machine with a jar of quarters, mindlessly pulling the lever over and over again.
That’s quite different than if you say, “I’m selling item X. It costs Y.” Digital items that are arbitrarily only available for a limited time, more often than not through battle passes these days, are like gacha, similarly manipulative. I wouldn’t call MMORPGs some bastion of morality, either. I’m sure you saw the same stories I did back in WoW’s heyday of parents neglecting their children because they were helplessly addicted to WoW. Whether by accident or design, WoW took the addictiveness in Diablo’s design and, thanks to a lucrative monthly subscription fee, created an incentive for their developers to pursue avenues to keep players playing longer.
The difference is in the details, that with other paid DLC, you actually get the thing you paid for, guaranteed. With a gacha, if they’re promoting some super-strong character, weapon, etc. that you want and you buy currency to spend in the gacha, you are not guaranteed to get that item or anything of the same quality/rarity in any of those pulls you make. It’s all random chance, gambling at its core. Exceptionally good or bad luck can start playing psychological tricks on you, such as FOMO (there will always be something stronger coming soon), sunk cost fallacy (you’ve already dumped this much into it and got nothing, what’s the difference with this much more?), and before you know it, if you’re not watching carefully, you’ve spent far more in in-game and/or real money than you realized. That’s far different than a one-time purchase straight-up for a cosmetic or weapon to use with no further need to spend any more, and that’s what gets people hooked like gambling. You may not have experienced this much because gachas tend to be very generous to new players in order to get them started out quickly as whales fodder and get them hooked on the adrenaline rush of “winning” in the gacha system before the gacha currency starts to dry up on them.
With a gacha, if they’re promoting some super-strong character, weapon, etc. that you want and you buy currency to spend in the gacha, you are not guaranteed to get that item or anything of the same quality/rarity in any of those pulls you make
I have only basic understanding of those systems, but it seems, there are “pity” systems which do give some guarantees that you get something if you fail rolling for it for long enough. I do agree it’s all very gamblish at its core though.
Most “pity” systems require hundreds of pulls beforehand, which unless someone saves months worth of free currency for those pulls, can be very expensive in real world money to get the currency to afford. In a way, pity systems are just designed to increase the amount of money players spend.
The only “pity” I dealt with at this point is guaranteed 4star for every 10 pulls. It can be anything though, not necessarily a character. But there are sometimes special offers (like tutorial pull) that indeed guarantee that you get a particular character or item for 10 pulls.
How do you think genshin impact would work with no gatcha challenge?
Meanin no gatcha pulls other than maybe forced tutorial one. You’d have to make due with only characters and gear you can earn without gatcha. Premium currency earned by playing can be used for anything else but not for any gatcha.
I recall reading that even the tutorial gatcha pull is always the same.
No money challenge so far sounds very realistic to me, but no gatcha at all? I’m not sure you can get characters except early game ones any other way. And those starter characters don’t even cover full list of elemental powers meaning you won’t even be able to solve some open-world puzzles that require certain elementals to interact with stuff. And I’m not sure those crystals can be used for much more than wishes (aka pulls aka gatcha? do I understand correctly it’s all synonyms?).
PS: also the tutorial pull isn’t forced I think? it’s just -20% meaning it’s 8 crystals for 10 wishes, but you’re free to not use it at all
Yeah no gatcha is no gatcha, no wishes so you would have to make due with starter characters and stuff you can earn without pulls/wishes.
Its basically challenge run that also tests how good the game actually is without any gambling elements.
In Puzzle and Dragons it was possible to clear dungeons to get new characters and some where really good. It was also possible to use premium currency for continues allowing one to use brute force methods to clear dungeons. It was also possible to pair your leader with friends leader reducing the need for gatcha.
(2) Also, I’m personally more interested in “no money” challenge. I like “gambling elements” tbh and enjoy all kinds of RNG in games: starting from randomized items stats in Diablo and procgen in roguelikes and ending with randomized perks in roguelites and stuff like pulls in Genshin. So for me “gambling elements” themselves aren’t something inherently bad and definitely not something I would want to avoid. For me, it’s social implications of gambling mechanics that are sometimes bad (in context of people who can’t control their spending), but not randomness or mechanics themselves.
(1) Well, all I can say for now is that my week of playing wasn’t enough to be able to say whether this is even possible at all. Maybe there will be more unlocked characters from regular questing later in the game, but so far I only got a single dendro character (Collei) from a random pull. And I think there were some open world mini-puzzles activated by dendro. I don’t think there were a lot of them though. Also they are definitely optional and not a big deal. Could also be possible it was intended for later game players going back with their dendro characters unlocked organically in the later questlines.
Some of the F2P games are great especially if you cant afford new games. In some you can just ignore all cosmetics and focus on getting good. Hell make using default skins your identity and some gamers may get extra salty if they get their ass handed to them by someone using “noob skins”.
As for gatcha games it depends largely where the paywall is. If its in the late/endgame then you may very well get tens if not hundreds of hours of enjoyment before you get there. Some of them also shower you with premium currency early on to get you hooked so you might eventually end up with pretty good team to clear most of the content without spendi g a dime.
To be fair there’s a range between $1,99 up to $150. The arcade hall from the 90’s with token exchange wasn’t much different.
Well I had no flippin clue
