Because there need to be reasons to participate in society properly. If it’s “we’re cutting you off from all trade and never restarting it,” there’s no incentive for them to change their behavior. Sanctions always give a reason.
Punishment isn’t a good motivator of human behavior, reinforcement is.
The starving peasant, outside the class system is the first among the exploited to discover that only violence pays. For him there is no compromise, no possible coming to terms; colonization and decolonization is simply a question of relative strength.
Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth
For the starving people of Gaza, who have lived their entire lives in what amounts to the world’s largest concentration camp, the time for “changed behaviour” from Israel is long passed, if it was ever there to begin with.
Great, we can keep being perpetually blood feuding with eachother for all eternity, great solution, once we’ve exiled and eradicated all hateful people the remainder will live in peace and prosperity forever.
(It’s not like that thinking isn’t basically how we got here or anything)
Great, we can keep being perpetually blood feuding with eachother for all eternity, great solution, once we’ve exiled and eradicated all hateful people the remainder will live in peace and prosperity forever.
This is not Fanon’s point, nor is it mine. The Wretched of The Earth Is a seminal text on colonialism for good reason. In it, Fanon is grappling with what it means for the colonized to violently resist.
The settler state is already violent. We just don’t usually conceive of state violence as such. Fanon is correct in the same way that the way to deal with a schoolyard bully is to stand up and confront him. Not appeal to his better angels.
(It’s not like that thinking isn’t basically how we got here or anything)
This misunderstands the situation. This isn’t some ancient conflict where both sides are equivalent. The Israeli state is the aggressor here, and that aggression has a clear beginning, with at least the Nakbah.
The land itself is the thing being fought over. Not some nebulous blood feud. The land, the capacity to live on it, work on it, cultivate it, to have history on that land. These are things being denied to the native Palestinians by the Israeli state.
The solution here is the right of return for all displaced Palestinians, restoration of their civil liberties, language rights, etc. So they might be able govern themselves, as they see fit.
For a colonized people the most essential value, because it is the most concrete, is first and foremost the land: the land which will bring them bread and, above all, dignity -The Wretched of The Earth
What we are asking for is not violence, what we are asking for is a free Palestine for all its citizens, regardless of religion. We want the religious ethno-supremacist state built on our stolen land to become free.
We aren’t asking for blood, and we aren’t asking to exile or eradicate anyone.
(It’s not like that thinking isn’t basically how we got here or anything)
You’re blaming two years of genocide on a single act of violent resistance. How we got here is 500 of our villages destroyed, many massacres against our people, 700 thousand of us expelled from our ancestral homelands, and 77 years of oppression and shooting our kids while calling us animals and snakes.
History will reflect October 7 as the Gaza ghetto uprising that it was, violent resistance to 75 years of dehumanizing us and colonizing our land, and 16 years of military siege on our people in Gaza.
Imagine telling Jews in WW2 they should have died peacefully because resisting violently is how we got here.
Some Israelis are living in the land of their grandfathers but most of them have countries of origin they can be returned to. If that would be bad for them, there’s always countries they can emigrate to. But most solutions that aren’t zionist or “two state” are along the lines of “abolish the ethnostate and replace it with a real democracy” in which case the people currently living in Israel (minus those guilty of crimes against humanity) largely go about their lives as they did before.
So you don’t believe Jews used to inhabit Israel, despite the evidence? They do have a valid reason for making a claim to the land, which is entirely different from your example
When your ancestors lives in another continent for centuries you lose your connection and can’t have any claim or force a state on the local population . The ancestry argument is very stupid
No I believe that they were originally from that spot between Egypt and Israel until they moved to Egypt and then to Israel after they committed genocide and killing the people that lived there before them. Then they got booted out of Israel and lived other places. They have less claim to the land than the people that were there in the 1800s. Have you not read the Bible?
Given that answer, and that Palestinians don’t currently live in the bits of the region that Israel occupies (whether legally or illegally) it seems you understand that if you leave a place you don’t have an eternal right to move back there, but that nevertheless for some length of time you retain such a claim.
I think that’s the key to understanding why it can get a bit complicated…
It is only complicated because of after ww2 the allies decided to carve up land that they did not own and did not ask the people who lived there where boarders should be. They also kicked out those that lived in Palestine and gave it to people who had not lived there in over 400 years. When outsiders who don’t live in an area make decisions for those that do shit goes wrong.
People say this all the time but this is not the reason it’s complicated. There were already hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the region by that point - Zionist migration to Palestine started in the 19th century, and that had been the cause of tensions for decades already. Hundreds of thousands more wanted to leave the Europe that had just tried to murder them again. If the Allies had just decided to bugger off and leave them to it the result would have been far from peaceful. As it was, they tried to achieve a compromise through the UN. They failed at that task but not because they “decided to carve up land.” Britain in particular refused to implement the partition plan recommended by the UN special committee because it was not acceptable to the Arabs.
This isn’t ancient history, this is so within our memorable lifetime. Palestinians were slaughtered and forced out within living memory and a lot of them are still alive and have the keys to they’re stolen homes.
Jacob from New York does not have the same claim to the land his ancestors occupied thousands of years ago, as the Palestinian who built the literal house he stole after living on the land occupied by her ancestors for all recorded history.
Yes, but I think that supports restarting from the 1940s, not from the 1700s. By 1947 there were hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the territory that now forms Israel and Palestine.
We want a one state solution because thanks to Israel fault of building illegal settlements a two state solution is no longer possible . Nobody advocate for kicking out all Israeli from the land
A two state solution is still possible. Israel kicked all the settlers out of Gaza once, and it can be done with other settlements too. It’s only infeasible because no country that matters is willing to stand up to Netanyahu in a way that matters. But without doing that, there’s also no way to enact whatever counter-genocide it is you’re advocating.
There was only 9000 settlers in Gaza. Here we are talking about 700k . Israel will probably do the same with Arabs and will be transferred to the new state which will be in a such economical weakness .
counter-genocide it is you’re advocating.
I said i advocate for a white state solution with equal rights so nobody is going to be genocide or ethnically cleansing stop being disingenuous
Because there need to be reasons to participate in society properly. If it’s “we’re cutting you off from all trade and never restarting it,” there’s no incentive for them to change their behavior. Sanctions always give a reason.
Punishment isn’t a good motivator of human behavior, reinforcement is.
For the starving people of Gaza, who have lived their entire lives in what amounts to the world’s largest concentration camp, the time for “changed behaviour” from Israel is long passed, if it was ever there to begin with.
Well clearly their form of fighting against Israel is going well for them.
I don’t think infants are the ones deciding the method of resistance lol
Great, we can keep being perpetually blood feuding with eachother for all eternity, great solution, once we’ve exiled and eradicated all hateful people the remainder will live in peace and prosperity forever.
(It’s not like that thinking isn’t basically how we got here or anything)
This is not Fanon’s point, nor is it mine. The Wretched of The Earth Is a seminal text on colonialism for good reason. In it, Fanon is grappling with what it means for the colonized to violently resist.
The settler state is already violent. We just don’t usually conceive of state violence as such. Fanon is correct in the same way that the way to deal with a schoolyard bully is to stand up and confront him. Not appeal to his better angels.
This misunderstands the situation. This isn’t some ancient conflict where both sides are equivalent. The Israeli state is the aggressor here, and that aggression has a clear beginning, with at least the Nakbah.
The land itself is the thing being fought over. Not some nebulous blood feud. The land, the capacity to live on it, work on it, cultivate it, to have history on that land. These are things being denied to the native Palestinians by the Israeli state.
The solution here is the right of return for all displaced Palestinians, restoration of their civil liberties, language rights, etc. So they might be able govern themselves, as they see fit.
For a colonized people the most essential value, because it is the most concrete, is first and foremost the land: the land which will bring them bread and, above all, dignity -The Wretched of The Earth
What we are asking for is not violence, what we are asking for is a free Palestine for all its citizens, regardless of religion. We want the religious ethno-supremacist state built on our stolen land to become free.
We aren’t asking for blood, and we aren’t asking to exile or eradicate anyone.
You’re blaming two years of genocide on a single act of violent resistance. How we got here is 500 of our villages destroyed, many massacres against our people, 700 thousand of us expelled from our ancestral homelands, and 77 years of oppression and shooting our kids while calling us animals and snakes.
History will reflect October 7 as the Gaza ghetto uprising that it was, violent resistance to 75 years of dehumanizing us and colonizing our land, and 16 years of military siege on our people in Gaza.
Imagine telling Jews in WW2 they should have died peacefully because resisting violently is how we got here.
Israel should not be coming back, it needs to be replaced by a country representing the indigenous land owners and not European colonisers.
What happens to the people living in Israel currently?
Some Israelis are living in the land of their grandfathers but most of them have countries of origin they can be returned to. If that would be bad for them, there’s always countries they can emigrate to. But most solutions that aren’t zionist or “two state” are along the lines of “abolish the ethnostate and replace it with a real democracy” in which case the people currently living in Israel (minus those guilty of crimes against humanity) largely go about their lives as they did before.
Reminds me of how they’re sending people packing in the US. At what point are you allowed to stay on the land
Jews believe they are the indigenous land owners. That’s what this whole thing is about.
Yes and POTUS believes that Tylenol causes Autism. Just because leaders believe something doesn’t make it true.
So you don’t believe Jews used to inhabit Israel, despite the evidence? They do have a valid reason for making a claim to the land, which is entirely different from your example
When your ancestors lives in another continent for centuries you lose your connection and can’t have any claim or force a state on the local population . The ancestry argument is very stupid
No I believe that they were originally from that spot between Egypt and Israel until they moved to Egypt and then to Israel after they committed genocide and killing the people that lived there before them. Then they got booted out of Israel and lived other places. They have less claim to the land than the people that were there in the 1800s. Have you not read the Bible?
Given that answer, and that Palestinians don’t currently live in the bits of the region that Israel occupies (whether legally or illegally) it seems you understand that if you leave a place you don’t have an eternal right to move back there, but that nevertheless for some length of time you retain such a claim.
I think that’s the key to understanding why it can get a bit complicated…
It is only complicated because of after ww2 the allies decided to carve up land that they did not own and did not ask the people who lived there where boarders should be. They also kicked out those that lived in Palestine and gave it to people who had not lived there in over 400 years. When outsiders who don’t live in an area make decisions for those that do shit goes wrong.
People say this all the time but this is not the reason it’s complicated. There were already hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the region by that point - Zionist migration to Palestine started in the 19th century, and that had been the cause of tensions for decades already. Hundreds of thousands more wanted to leave the Europe that had just tried to murder them again. If the Allies had just decided to bugger off and leave them to it the result would have been far from peaceful. As it was, they tried to achieve a compromise through the UN. They failed at that task but not because they “decided to carve up land.” Britain in particular refused to implement the partition plan recommended by the UN special committee because it was not acceptable to the Arabs.
This isn’t ancient history, this is so within our memorable lifetime. Palestinians were slaughtered and forced out within living memory and a lot of them are still alive and have the keys to they’re stolen homes.
Jacob from New York does not have the same claim to the land his ancestors occupied thousands of years ago, as the Palestinian who built the literal house he stole after living on the land occupied by her ancestors for all recorded history.
It’s not complicated at all.
You left out the part when Israelis continuing forcing Palestinians off their land to this day.
It’s a bit different when you’re forcibly removed from your home, no?
Yes, but I think that supports restarting from the 1940s, not from the 1700s. By 1947 there were hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the territory that now forms Israel and Palestine.
Jewish people have more current claim to Brooklyn than they do to the land that corresponds to ancient Israel and Judea.
Sounds like you want revenge colonialism.
It’s nice to see that you and Israel can agree on the desirability of a forever war and ethnic cleansing…
We want a one state solution because thanks to Israel fault of building illegal settlements a two state solution is no longer possible . Nobody advocate for kicking out all Israeli from the land
A two state solution is still possible. Israel kicked all the settlers out of Gaza once, and it can be done with other settlements too. It’s only infeasible because no country that matters is willing to stand up to Netanyahu in a way that matters. But without doing that, there’s also no way to enact whatever counter-genocide it is you’re advocating.
There was only 9000 settlers in Gaza. Here we are talking about 700k . Israel will probably do the same with Arabs and will be transferred to the new state which will be in a such economical weakness .
I said i advocate for a white state solution with equal rights so nobody is going to be genocide or ethnically cleansing stop being disingenuous
A colonial project is not a human. Neither is a country btw, but that’s not what we are talking about here anyway.