That’s not a point in either’s favor. That’s a moral wash.
I’d rather both nations failed, so something more humane can potentially take its place (and revolution over and over until that happens) but as an American, rejecting China means nothing, just as a Chinese citizen rejecting America means nothing.
Rejecting evil empires begins with undermining the one that you’re expected to support and be a loyal cog of. A Russian openly hating America or a Chinese person openly hating Russia is indistinguishable from patriotism/nationalism.
I can only hurt one empire materially, the one I materially live within. The Chinese have to reign in China, and the Russians Russia. The best I can do is my part not to strengthen or support the evil empire I was born under to the best of my ability.
I can only hurt one empire materially, the one I materially live within.
Right, but you missed the core of my point. If you don’t like either, you don’t have to support either. If that means going to a decentralized option or going without a TikTok alternative, seems like you’ll achieve your dual goal of not helping either terrible option.
From my perspective, being disloyal to my country’s attempts to monopolize the information I imbibe, and being counted as part of that mass movement directly is again more important than also rejecting receiving the social media of another evil empire that, again, would simply be seen as patriotism/nationalism/nothing at all. It doesn’t actually meaningfully benefit China, but it does very publicly, as a movement of people not just me, work as a demonstration of undermining the authority of the evil empire I do have some tiny insignificant influence in.
They’ll ban it of course, and there will be another one. And that continuous “We don’t respect you or your authority because you arent on our side” does over time diminish the misplaced faith some still have in our captured institutions. Unfortunately signing up for Lemmy over reddit’s greed or some scandanavian social media doesn’t send the same message.
It has to be an enemy evil empire for the powerful of our evil empire to take notice and be concerned at all. Otherwise, it’s akin to “protesting” with a permit at a designated protest zone out of the eyeline and profit operations of those you’re protesting, aka masturbation.
Well, you do what you think is best. I’m not trying to tell you how to live your life, and I think our goals are aligned, but it seems we’ll have to agree to disagree on what we each think is the best course of action.
Good luck out there. Gonna be a rough couple of decades.
I can only hurt one empire materially, the one I materially live within. The Chinese have to reign in China, and the Russians Russia. The best I can do is my part not to strengthen or support the evil empire I was born under to the best of my ability.
What you can do is not grow the ones you can’t hurt.
Zero good will come from using this app. If you want to support something positive go sign up for Loops and use the Fediverse alternative rather than support genocidal empires in any form.
Or better yet, contribute to something that opposes mainstream social media. If you have development skills, help build something viable. If you don’t, encourage others to use something viable.
The problem with the Uyghurs in China is less about deaths and more about cultural genocide. They’ve been rounded up and jailed en-masse (estimates are upwards of a million people), threatened, surveilled, etc, all to force them to submit and abandon their cultural heritage. It’s pretty similar in scope to the Japanese Internment in the US, but much larger in scope and with a much more nefarious goal.
I obviously don’t have hard figures on the actual death toll (not sure anyone does, as China doesn’t seem interested in disclosing it), but again, regardless of whether it’s higher or lower than whatever you’ll attribute to the US, the worst part here is forced cultural assimilation, or in other words, psychological violence (i.e. punishing “wrong thing”).
Odd, because I didn’t get it blessed by a priest. :)
Seriously though, there’s a pretty big difference between doing the genocide yourself and supplying weapons to an ally, who uses those weapons for genocide.
I think this is a very convenient position for the US. It fails to take into account the depth of connections between Israel and the US, and how much of the situation in Gaza can only happen because of the US.
Even if I grant that there is some genocide scaling factor because it’s done by a vassal state, I still would argue the devastation of Gaza is certainly more far extensive.
The US has very little reason to target Palestinians, and most of the violence from Palestinian groups have targeted Israelis. The US is far more concerned about other groups in the region, like ISIS, the Taliban, and the Houthis. The main reason the US seems to care is because they successfully carried out an attack on our ally.
vassal state
The US has repeatedly told Israel to scale back their operations in Gaza and allow humanitarian aid in, yet they completely ignore it. There’s absolutely no way Israel is anywhere close to a “vassal state,” they do pretty much whatever they want.
But yeah, Israel is certainly emboldened by having such a powerful ally. That doesn’t make the US responsible for Israeli actions though.
The US has very little reason to target Palestinians, and most of the violence from Palestinian groups have targeted Israelis.
The US has interest in having a foothold in the region. The foothold they’ve chosen is a settler colonial project that has reasons to exterminate the native population as settler projects often do.
The US is far more concerned about other groups in the region, like ISIS, the Taliban, and the Houthis.
These are pretty small concerns, the actual concerns in the region are the nation states that oppose US hegemony.
The main reason the US seems to care is because they successfully carried out an attack on our ally.
US aid to Israel did not start with October 7th.
The US has repeatedly told Israel to scale back their operations in Gaza and allow humanitarian aid in, yet they completely ignore it. There’s absolutely no way Israel is anywhere close to a “vassal state,” they do pretty much whatever they want.
Actions speak louder than words, and all of our actions seem to suggest they can do no wrong. So maybe consider that just because we say otherwise doesn’t actual mean we want their actions to scale back.
That doesn’t make the US responsible for Israeli actions though.
The US is arming, funding, and blocking accountability from the UN. How many times do we have to reload the gun before the shooting is our fault too?
China is and has committed genocide.
The US is and has committed genocide.
That’s not a point in either’s favor. That’s a moral wash.
I’d rather both nations failed, so something more humane can potentially take its place (and revolution over and over until that happens) but as an American, rejecting China means nothing, just as a Chinese citizen rejecting America means nothing.
Rejecting evil empires begins with undermining the one that you’re expected to support and be a loyal cog of. A Russian openly hating America or a Chinese person openly hating Russia is indistinguishable from patriotism/nationalism.
I can only hurt one empire materially, the one I materially live within. The Chinese have to reign in China, and the Russians Russia. The best I can do is my part not to strengthen or support the evil empire I was born under to the best of my ability.
Right, but you missed the core of my point. If you don’t like either, you don’t have to support either. If that means going to a decentralized option or going without a TikTok alternative, seems like you’ll achieve your dual goal of not helping either terrible option.
From my perspective, being disloyal to my country’s attempts to monopolize the information I imbibe, and being counted as part of that mass movement directly is again more important than also rejecting receiving the social media of another evil empire that, again, would simply be seen as patriotism/nationalism/nothing at all. It doesn’t actually meaningfully benefit China, but it does very publicly, as a movement of people not just me, work as a demonstration of undermining the authority of the evil empire I do have some tiny insignificant influence in.
They’ll ban it of course, and there will be another one. And that continuous “We don’t respect you or your authority because you arent on our side” does over time diminish the misplaced faith some still have in our captured institutions. Unfortunately signing up for Lemmy over reddit’s greed or some scandanavian social media doesn’t send the same message.
It has to be an enemy evil empire for the powerful of our evil empire to take notice and be concerned at all. Otherwise, it’s akin to “protesting” with a permit at a designated protest zone out of the eyeline and profit operations of those you’re protesting, aka masturbation.
Well, you do what you think is best. I’m not trying to tell you how to live your life, and I think our goals are aligned, but it seems we’ll have to agree to disagree on what we each think is the best course of action.
Good luck out there. Gonna be a rough couple of decades.
Agreed on all counts my friend, and best of luck to you as well.
What you can do is not grow the ones you can’t hurt.
Zero good will come from using this app. If you want to support something positive go sign up for Loops and use the Fediverse alternative rather than support genocidal empires in any form.
Or better yet, contribute to something that opposes mainstream social media. If you have development skills, help build something viable. If you don’t, encourage others to use something viable.
Ok, you’re either trolling or been fed a lot of misinformation. The problem is about recency and extensiveness, and China is worse on both.
The USA has killed orders of magnitudes more people in the last few years. Just, objectively.
Source?
The problem with the Uyghurs in China is less about deaths and more about cultural genocide. They’ve been rounded up and jailed en-masse (estimates are upwards of a million people), threatened, surveilled, etc, all to force them to submit and abandon their cultural heritage. It’s pretty similar in scope to the Japanese Internment in the US, but much larger in scope and with a much more nefarious goal.
I obviously don’t have hard figures on the actual death toll (not sure anyone does, as China doesn’t seem interested in disclosing it), but again, regardless of whether it’s higher or lower than whatever you’ll attribute to the US, the worst part here is forced cultural assimilation, or in other words, psychological violence (i.e. punishing “wrong thing”).
Is your point here that China’s actions against Uyghurs is more recent and extensive than the US’s part in Gaza?
Recent, extensive, and active. The US doesn’t have a direct part in Gaza, China has a direct part in the issues w/ the Uyghurs.
I’m not saying the US is innocent here, just that they’re very different situations.
This argument is incredibly hallow to me.
Odd, because I didn’t get it blessed by a priest. :)
Seriously though, there’s a pretty big difference between doing the genocide yourself and supplying weapons to an ally, who uses those weapons for genocide.
I think this is a very convenient position for the US. It fails to take into account the depth of connections between Israel and the US, and how much of the situation in Gaza can only happen because of the US.
Even if I grant that there is some genocide scaling factor because it’s done by a vassal state, I still would argue the devastation of Gaza is certainly more far extensive.
The US has very little reason to target Palestinians, and most of the violence from Palestinian groups have targeted Israelis. The US is far more concerned about other groups in the region, like ISIS, the Taliban, and the Houthis. The main reason the US seems to care is because they successfully carried out an attack on our ally.
The US has repeatedly told Israel to scale back their operations in Gaza and allow humanitarian aid in, yet they completely ignore it. There’s absolutely no way Israel is anywhere close to a “vassal state,” they do pretty much whatever they want.
But yeah, Israel is certainly emboldened by having such a powerful ally. That doesn’t make the US responsible for Israeli actions though.
The US has interest in having a foothold in the region. The foothold they’ve chosen is a settler colonial project that has reasons to exterminate the native population as settler projects often do.
These are pretty small concerns, the actual concerns in the region are the nation states that oppose US hegemony.
US aid to Israel did not start with October 7th.
Actions speak louder than words, and all of our actions seem to suggest they can do no wrong. So maybe consider that just because we say otherwise doesn’t actual mean we want their actions to scale back.
The US is arming, funding, and blocking accountability from the UN. How many times do we have to reload the gun before the shooting is our fault too?