Hi everyone, I use Linux on all my machines since a decade. Unfortunately my laptops are getting older and I will probably have to change them soon. Which Laptops would you recommend me to buy in 2025 a part Librem?
I don’t have a high budget but I’m still looking for something relatively recent. I looked on H-node but it seems that there are not a lot of recent things.
I use Debian as a distro.
That’s not how it works at all though… What? The RAM and SSD are individually replaceable, and the screen, speaker system, and chassis all have individual upgrades that have been released with time too (for the 13, at least). The only “replacing the entire guts” you would do is if you replaced the mainboard for a CPU upgrade, and even then that’s just the mainboard, not the RAM, SSD, etc., which is pretty on-par with, say, a desktop anyway as often a meaningful CPU upgrade will include switching to a newer platform and therefore a new motherboard.
Not saying the Framework has no issues at all whatsoever, but that’s sure not one of them.
So… all the normal stuff that is normally upgradeable on a normal laptop is upgradeable for framework too? Good point…
That’s exactly my point, yes. Again, the “upgradeability” of a framework laptop is unrealistic at best and a scam at worst. It’s exactly as upgradeable as most laptops unless you’re replacing the whole mainboard which is not very realistic. By that point there is likely enough wear and tear that it makes no sense to keep the case, keyboard, and screen… and with framework premium prices you aren’t saving money on the SSD or RAM (which, no, you likely can’t reuse on a CPU upgrade, most likely you’ll be going DDR4->DDR5). I do give them credit for repairability, which is great, but “upgradeability” specifically is basically a marketing scam and will not make any sense for 99% of users.
I expected the downvotes on my comment because my opinion goes against the framework fanboys, but I hope my suggestion of KFocus IR16 is not discounted because of my opinions on framework. It is truly a great choice for linux compatibility
That’s just the thing, though. Soldered RAM and even drives is becoming more and more common these days, especially in the Apple space. But, the main thing here is user replaceable. I don’t know when you last swapped the RAM on a laptop, but on most consumer laptops these days it is a nightmare. With Framework, it’s 5 screws (the driver for which is included in the box, but also just standard torx) and you’re in, and they have a QR code to a guide on how to do the replacement for first timers. I know it can be hard to take if you’re used to pulling apart computers for fun, I come from there too, but the easy user upgradeability is seriously, literally, actually a great selling point on the Framework.
Also, the case, screen, trackpad, etc that get all the wear and tear are just as easily replaced if that’s your hang up.
Offtopic, we are discussing linux laptops.
Aw gee, then Framework wins! With Focus IR16 its nine phillips screws… 😩
OK I had a great weekend not thinking about this thread (Yes I know it’s not been the weekend for a couple of days now, it was extended), so I’m going to write one more message on this and then just leave it as is. My main issue is that you straight up said the upgradeability is a scam. It’s clear from this thread you’ve never worked in repair or had to upgrade a consumer-grade laptop from the last 10 years - which is fine but you shouldn’t go throwing around such harsh phrases as “scam” for it. Framework has a legitimately good product that could feasibly be the last laptop you ever buy - for example, their most recent refresh of the Framework 13 mainboard will work in the original chassis, despite numerous design revisions over the last 5 years. Very few other devices in the space, even those designed to be upgraded, can be brought up to the newest version with just a mainboard replacement (this is one of my biggest issues with FairPhone, but that’s not really related to the topic at hand). Similarly, the new 12" is more easily upgraded than ever with the swap to pogo pins on the keyboard rather than a ribbon cable for the keyboard. I truly think I could give my mother a Framework and she would be able to keep it up-to-date without any input from the members of my family who have repair experience.
On this topic:
The Asahi Linux project is nothing to sneeze at, and some of the most competent Linux users I know are on either an Intel or M-whatever Mac. Being an Apple device does not exclude it from being a Linux laptop, though I would never personally recommend them to a user, new or old.
On this because I forgot to address it:
It does look like a good laptop, and I think you should have separated your comments out because now your actually pretty decent recommendation is going to be buried because it was paired with an unrelated and fairly ignorant take.
Credit where credit is due, I would have like phillips, but I do also understand the use case for torx on the Framework (plus it comes with a screwdriver, which fixes the main “who has a torx driver?” issue with torx). Either way, I’m not looking to discount the potential reparability or upgradeability of the IR16, I don’t have one and can’t weigh in there, If your position had been “This laptop manages to actually be more upgradeable than the Framework, whilst also being built for Linux first”, there would be no problem there (provided you could back that claim up), but outright calling it a scam? Come on man…
Long and short, no, I would not call the upgradeability of the Framework a “marketing scam”. Thus far, a Framework laptop 13 built the day they released 5 years ago could be not only continually used and repaired for those 5 years, but also brought up-to-date with the latest hardware with relatively little user effort in comparison to similarly sized and spec’d consumer laptops, and without needing to buy a whole new device - you can just “ship of Theseus” the thing. Note that when I say “hardware”, I don’t just mean the fun buzzword-y hardware like CPU and RAM, but also things like keyboards, speakers, the screen, the charger/cable, and other similar components that a user is less likely to think about wanting to improve at the time of purchase, but would otherwise be hurting for newer versions of 5+ years down the line.
Can framework physically be upgraded? Yes. Is that practical, realistic, or something the makes sense for a typical user to actually do (beyond RAM and hard drives, which is common to be able to replace on most laptops already)? No. See all the reasons I’ve already covered. To market the product based on that like it is something great that a user will expect to do and why they should buy it, is pretty scammy behavior, especially when the laptop is priced at a premium and this is justified by these impractical features.
Ir16 is as repairable and as easy as framework to replace/upgrade typical components as one should expect for a laptop, like RAM, hard drives, and network card. You remove 9 screws, the bottom panel comes right off, and there is access to those components. I wouldn’t expect to easily replace other parts of it or the entire mainboard, but again, no one is practically going to be doing that with framework either anyway.
It’s actually related (given all of the comments suggesting framework and parroting scam marketting points), and not ignorant, just realistic. People often want to defend their purchase after they’ve been duped.