Looking into this it seems that lootboxes aren’t banned in the sense that would benefit the industry and players as a whole and will instead incentivize game developers and platforms to create age verification systems.
Brazil had the chance to outright ban lootboxes full stop and the fact that they didn’t take it is really disappointing.
Lootboxes arent even the problem they used to be because developers have realised people will just pay $30 straight up for 1 skin anyway. On top of a subscription disguised as a battlepass, they dont need lootboxes anymore.
Even if you took the hardcore view that loot boxes are outright gambling, gambling isn’t illegal for adults. Why would loot boxes be treated more stringently than online casinos, even in your scenario?
Also, it doesn’t incentivize age verification systems, age verification systems are now mandatory. They are needed to be able to sell any games marketed at adults, including porn games, games with loot boxes and presumably any other game with an 18 and up rating by their official ratings board.
The loot box panic has mostly been another variant of the “will someone thing of the children” violence panic of the 90s. Just like then, age ratings and parental controls should have been the solution, but because gamers were too busy being angry and self righteous online they went with it to this point.
From what I tracked in one game the odds were wrong, so it goes against legal gambling laws where even if it is electronic it has to have payout odds that match the presented method.
I.e. if its 5 cards, odd should be 1:5 in flipping the reward card. But some games it could be double or quadruple that.
The comment of why would loot boxes be different than online gambling. The loot boxes I have seen in games are often chance based and the chances aren’t legal probability, so technically illegal
All loot boxes are chance based, but first of all, I don’t know which laws you’re talking about. Brazil’s? Guessing the US because when somebody has a case of the default human it’s typically an American, but who knows.
But also, I’m not a US lawyer, but I seriously doubt US gambling laws requires all games to have a flat probability, mostly because… that’s not how games of chance work anywhere, and definitely not how blind boxes work anywhere and blind box products are not gambling anyway, which is the entire point.
It’s still a non sequitur and I still have no idea what you’re trying to say.
(Im in Canada many other countries are the same) When a chance of game becomes electronic probability rules still apply. Those screen based jackpot machines in casinos have to follow actual mechanical jackpot game probability payouts.
So a six sided dice role in a game that involves a monetary system to purchase still has to have a 1:6 payout, or it is illegal because you are fooling the person.
I have played several games where they have say 3 loot boxes and you pay to open one. There is a known prize and generic stuff. The payout odds do not match over a large number of tries, meaning the back end probably has been coded to only payout 1% or something super low, or maybe not at all. In many countries this type of gambling (even for adults ) is illegal because it simulates a chance game but is fundamentally not as presented.
I was responding to the loot boxes and the gambling comment.
Sure, but this isn’t a digital version of a casino game. It’s a digital version of a blind box. And there is no rule to say that trading cards or collectible card games need to have equal possibilities of yielding a specific card. That is very much the opposite of how that works. Physical blind box offerings absolutely use different probabilities and different content rarities.
So yeah, if you make up the categorizations, the rules and the mechanics we can be talking about whatever you want, but in the real world that’s not even close to how this works in either physical or digital form, which I guess explains the confusion.
For the record, multiple games offer a readout of the possibilities of getting a particular type of thing. I, you may be surprised to know, haven’t checked the probabilities being accurate in all of them, but I’m gonna need some specific proof of someone fudging them, because that’s a problem of false advertising at that point, forget gambling rules that don’t even apply.
Also, 1% is a HUGE drop rate for rare items in loot boxes, both physical and digital. 1% is, as it turns out, 1 in 100. Lots of games, collectibles and other types of blind boxes feature way more than 100 tries at opening a loot box, even for fully unmonetized ones. If anything there’s a bit of a cognitive bias there, where people are very bad at instinctively understanding how percentages work, which makes disclosing loot box percentages a bit of a challenge.
Look, I’m not sure what games you play or your understanding of how any of this works but, respectfully, you’re misunderstanding it pretty deeply.
I think you mis understood what I mewnt. And maybe we are crosstalking. The 1% I meant it was a game where one of the loot boxes on screen was the prize, then “shuffled” with to others. So one of the three selections should yield the prize. Based on probabilities, you should get a payout on the 4th refreshed try at this since you are now pushing the odds in your favour, but it was not like that you could go 100 times.
Same with spin the wheel games to get the loot box. If every other spin section has a loot box, you should on average land on it 50% of the time. But they weren’t like that. Might be 10%.
This is why its become a worldwide scrutinized thing in games because the chances are misrepresented. There are guidelines for those tginking about adding paid game mechanisms so as to not run afould of state/province gambling laws.
Gambling involves the opportunity to win something that actually exists. The fundamental issue with loot boxes is your gambling for code that can’t be sold, traded, or preserved past the lifetime of the game.
It’s a disgusting practice that preys upon people’s psychological reward centers and has been normalized by our obsessive consumption. It should absolutely be illegal.
Yeeeah, I’ve encountered this argument a few times, particularly when this issue was more salient and, I’m not gonna lie, it’s absolutely baffling.
As in, it seems to imply that gambling is better because there’s a chance of winning something of genuine monetary value.
Which, let me be clear, is the exact opposite of how this works. The possibility of recouping losses or winning money is the actual problem with gambling. The potential monetary reward is a major component of gambling and one of the meaningful reasons why loot boxes are… nowhere near as bad?
Digital loot boxes are typically not allowed to be translated into actual money by design, both as a security measure and because that’s how actual gambling works. Betting for real money is way worse than buying some digital thing that only has value inside a game. Because, you know, in that scenario you know you’re spending that money and it’s not coming back, it’s just a matter of spending it on what. You’re not getting enticed with the fiction that you’re investing money or not actually spending it because you could potentially get it back. That’s why kids aren’t typically allowed to bet in a casino but they still get to buy Magic the Gathering packs (and let’s be clear, the fact that Magic has a thriving gray market around it makes it worse than digital loot boxes as well).
I try to keep this conversation respectful but, honestly, hearing this argument is one of the surefire ways to know the person talking about this has no idea what they’re talking about.
Gambling is at least ok in my book because it’s only legal for adults and in specific, regulated locations. It’s still fucking idiotic behavior to engage in, but whatever, adults can waste their money, I don’t really care. It’s easy to avoid unless you live in Vegas.
I’m sure I’ll alienate most of the user base here, but anything that involves turning money into ‘pulls’ should be illegal for minors, and honestly probably just entirely. Magic, Pokemon cards, blind boxes, the stupid Lego minifigs I love to collect. Ban all of it, it’s bad for our psyche, it’s wasteful, it’s anti-consumer bullshit that should never be allowed. If you can’t make money selling your product directly, then you don’t deserve to run a business.
You’re right though, the gambling analogy perfect. I doubt paid loot boxes are significantly worse than letting children gamble. But still, there’s a reason we don’t let children gamble, and loot boxes certainly aren’t any better.
Looking into this it seems that lootboxes aren’t banned in the sense that would benefit the industry and players as a whole and will instead incentivize game developers and platforms to create age verification systems.
Brazil had the chance to outright ban lootboxes full stop and the fact that they didn’t take it is really disappointing.
Lootboxes arent even the problem they used to be because developers have realised people will just pay $30 straight up for 1 skin anyway. On top of a subscription disguised as a battlepass, they dont need lootboxes anymore.
Even if you took the hardcore view that loot boxes are outright gambling, gambling isn’t illegal for adults. Why would loot boxes be treated more stringently than online casinos, even in your scenario?
Also, it doesn’t incentivize age verification systems, age verification systems are now mandatory. They are needed to be able to sell any games marketed at adults, including porn games, games with loot boxes and presumably any other game with an 18 and up rating by their official ratings board.
The loot box panic has mostly been another variant of the “will someone thing of the children” violence panic of the 90s. Just like then, age ratings and parental controls should have been the solution, but because gamers were too busy being angry and self righteous online they went with it to this point.
From what I tracked in one game the odds were wrong, so it goes against legal gambling laws where even if it is electronic it has to have payout odds that match the presented method. I.e. if its 5 cards, odd should be 1:5 in flipping the reward card. But some games it could be double or quadruple that.
Did you respond to the right thing? This seems like a non sequitur, so maybe the threading got messed up?
The comment of why would loot boxes be different than online gambling. The loot boxes I have seen in games are often chance based and the chances aren’t legal probability, so technically illegal
All loot boxes are chance based, but first of all, I don’t know which laws you’re talking about. Brazil’s? Guessing the US because when somebody has a case of the default human it’s typically an American, but who knows.
But also, I’m not a US lawyer, but I seriously doubt US gambling laws requires all games to have a flat probability, mostly because… that’s not how games of chance work anywhere, and definitely not how blind boxes work anywhere and blind box products are not gambling anyway, which is the entire point.
It’s still a non sequitur and I still have no idea what you’re trying to say.
(Im in Canada many other countries are the same) When a chance of game becomes electronic probability rules still apply. Those screen based jackpot machines in casinos have to follow actual mechanical jackpot game probability payouts.
So a six sided dice role in a game that involves a monetary system to purchase still has to have a 1:6 payout, or it is illegal because you are fooling the person.
I have played several games where they have say 3 loot boxes and you pay to open one. There is a known prize and generic stuff. The payout odds do not match over a large number of tries, meaning the back end probably has been coded to only payout 1% or something super low, or maybe not at all. In many countries this type of gambling (even for adults ) is illegal because it simulates a chance game but is fundamentally not as presented.
I was responding to the loot boxes and the gambling comment.
Sure, but this isn’t a digital version of a casino game. It’s a digital version of a blind box. And there is no rule to say that trading cards or collectible card games need to have equal possibilities of yielding a specific card. That is very much the opposite of how that works. Physical blind box offerings absolutely use different probabilities and different content rarities.
So yeah, if you make up the categorizations, the rules and the mechanics we can be talking about whatever you want, but in the real world that’s not even close to how this works in either physical or digital form, which I guess explains the confusion.
For the record, multiple games offer a readout of the possibilities of getting a particular type of thing. I, you may be surprised to know, haven’t checked the probabilities being accurate in all of them, but I’m gonna need some specific proof of someone fudging them, because that’s a problem of false advertising at that point, forget gambling rules that don’t even apply.
Also, 1% is a HUGE drop rate for rare items in loot boxes, both physical and digital. 1% is, as it turns out, 1 in 100. Lots of games, collectibles and other types of blind boxes feature way more than 100 tries at opening a loot box, even for fully unmonetized ones. If anything there’s a bit of a cognitive bias there, where people are very bad at instinctively understanding how percentages work, which makes disclosing loot box percentages a bit of a challenge.
Look, I’m not sure what games you play or your understanding of how any of this works but, respectfully, you’re misunderstanding it pretty deeply.
I think you mis understood what I mewnt. And maybe we are crosstalking. The 1% I meant it was a game where one of the loot boxes on screen was the prize, then “shuffled” with to others. So one of the three selections should yield the prize. Based on probabilities, you should get a payout on the 4th refreshed try at this since you are now pushing the odds in your favour, but it was not like that you could go 100 times.
Same with spin the wheel games to get the loot box. If every other spin section has a loot box, you should on average land on it 50% of the time. But they weren’t like that. Might be 10%.
This is why its become a worldwide scrutinized thing in games because the chances are misrepresented. There are guidelines for those tginking about adding paid game mechanisms so as to not run afould of state/province gambling laws.
Here’s what’s been happening about it in some places https://liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/glr2.2024.0006
Gambling involves the opportunity to win something that actually exists. The fundamental issue with loot boxes is your gambling for code that can’t be sold, traded, or preserved past the lifetime of the game.
It’s a disgusting practice that preys upon people’s psychological reward centers and has been normalized by our obsessive consumption. It should absolutely be illegal.
Yeeeah, I’ve encountered this argument a few times, particularly when this issue was more salient and, I’m not gonna lie, it’s absolutely baffling.
As in, it seems to imply that gambling is better because there’s a chance of winning something of genuine monetary value.
Which, let me be clear, is the exact opposite of how this works. The possibility of recouping losses or winning money is the actual problem with gambling. The potential monetary reward is a major component of gambling and one of the meaningful reasons why loot boxes are… nowhere near as bad?
Digital loot boxes are typically not allowed to be translated into actual money by design, both as a security measure and because that’s how actual gambling works. Betting for real money is way worse than buying some digital thing that only has value inside a game. Because, you know, in that scenario you know you’re spending that money and it’s not coming back, it’s just a matter of spending it on what. You’re not getting enticed with the fiction that you’re investing money or not actually spending it because you could potentially get it back. That’s why kids aren’t typically allowed to bet in a casino but they still get to buy Magic the Gathering packs (and let’s be clear, the fact that Magic has a thriving gray market around it makes it worse than digital loot boxes as well).
I try to keep this conversation respectful but, honestly, hearing this argument is one of the surefire ways to know the person talking about this has no idea what they’re talking about.
Gambling is at least ok in my book because it’s only legal for adults and in specific, regulated locations. It’s still fucking idiotic behavior to engage in, but whatever, adults can waste their money, I don’t really care. It’s easy to avoid unless you live in Vegas.
I’m sure I’ll alienate most of the user base here, but anything that involves turning money into ‘pulls’ should be illegal for minors, and honestly probably just entirely. Magic, Pokemon cards, blind boxes, the stupid Lego minifigs I love to collect. Ban all of it, it’s bad for our psyche, it’s wasteful, it’s anti-consumer bullshit that should never be allowed. If you can’t make money selling your product directly, then you don’t deserve to run a business.
You’re right though, the gambling analogy perfect. I doubt paid loot boxes are significantly worse than letting children gamble. But still, there’s a reason we don’t let children gamble, and loot boxes certainly aren’t any better.